BLITZER: LATE EDITION continues right after this.
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PAT BUCHANAN (REF), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: The party of Ronald Reagan that I loved and served honorably in the White House is, in my judgment, dead. And its successor on Capitol Hill has become little more than the bellhop stand of the business roundtable.
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BLITZER: Reform Party presidential candidate Pat Buchanan speaking at Harvard University this past week.
Welcome back to LATE EDITION.
Joining us now to talk about his campaign and the Reform Party's future is Pat Buchanan.
Thanks so much for joining us. Welcome back to LATE EDITION.
PATRICK BUCHANAN (REF), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Hello, Wolf.
BLITZER: You just heard this debate between the White House and the NRA over guns. I take it you probably have a position on who's right: the White House, the president or Wayne LaPierre of the National Rifle Association.
BUCHANAN: Well, I think some of the rhetoric about the -- against the president was over the top, and I don't think it ought to be used. At the same time, I don't believe the president and Mr. Gore ought to exploit these tragedies every time they do to run around and demonize folks who are members of the NRA and who are good American citizens. So I think they ought to cool the rhetoric a little bit.
And one idea I think that ought to be looked at is really what's known as a gun court, Wolf, and a rocket docket where anyone in any state who commits a crime -- whether it's a burglary or something else -- and has a gun with him is taken separately into a gun court and prosecuted for the gun crime.
We can all agree on one thing.
BLITZER: At the federal level.
BUCHANAN: No, at the state level, too, because that's where most of the action is going to be, quite frankly, and also at the federal level. But the truth is, Wayne LaPierre is very right about the Brady Law. The Feds aren't enforcing it as they should.
But if get a gun court and a rocket docket, you can take -- where we can all agree is, anybody that uses a gun in the commission of a crime, let's give them a separate sentence, and any felon who tries to buy a gun ought to go right to jail.
If we get that done, I think we can agree on about 90 percent of the problem being solved.
BLITZER: Well, on the specific issue that seems to be the major sticking point right now, the one day versus the three-day background check at gun shows -- where do you stand?
BUCHANAN: I come out on the idea that we ought to have a computerized system where every felon in America...
BLITZER: But if you can't do it.
BUCHANAN: You can -- what is the matter with the federal -- I mean, the IRS does a good...
BLITZER: Sometimes it takes three days, though.
BUCHANAN: Look, the IRS has a fine computer system that works to run all of us down and sends us those little letters that are written by the computer...
BLITZER: It takes them a long time to come up with all of this -- that information.
BUCHANAN: Well, they ought to get that done. They ought to do it.
BLITZER: But do you want to take a position: one day versus three days?
BUCHANAN: I'll take a position that it ought to be done in a day by the computer.
BLITZER: OK, let's move on and talk about a subject that's obviously very close to your heart: your desire to be president of the United States.
Do you realistically, Pat Buchanan, sitting here as not even the Reform Party candidate yet, someone who wants to be the Reform Party candidate, believe you could beat Al Gore and George W. Bush and be the next president of the United States.
BUCHANAN: Well, you know, Jesse Ventura was at 10 percent in October of 1998, and he got in three debates or four debates, and he won the governorship of Minnesota.
By the time the debates come around this fall, I'll be well above that, I believe. If we get into those three debates, I don't think either of these other candidates has really closed the sale with the American people, not as the incumbent president.
BUCHANAN: I think this is wide open. I think the American people have never been more willing to walk away from the two parties and take a look at a third party. If you see John McCain went from what, three percent to about 56 percent beating everybody, in a matter of a couple months. I think it can be done. Is at long shot? Sure.
BLITZER: And so you're not just doing this to make a statement. You're doing this because you're convinced you have a chance of being the next president.
BUCHANAN: Well look, if I felt I were going to come down to eight or 10 percent in the final analysis I wouldn't have done it. I believe we can win this and Wolf, the way we're going to win it is get off a lot of this talk about who said what about the president in the NRA. Talk about the trade war being conducted against the United States of America by the OPEC cartel. We bail out Mexico, with what, $50 billion. They conspire with Saudi Arabia and Kuwait to drive up oil prices by 70 billion against the United States?
I would tell them, the Mexican government and these other governments, no foreign aid, no IMF loans, no World Bank loans, if you're part of this OPEC conspiracy. I would tell the Kuwaitis, look, we saved you, you wouldn't exist without us, now start pumping oil or the American fleet is leaving.
BLITZER: You know, the Treasury department of the Clinton administration says that $50 billion bailout, which was a guaranteed loan to Mexico, was repaid with interest and U.S. taxpayers wound up making money on the deal.
BUCHANAN: You know, I'd call up Ernesto Zedillo and say, Ernesto, you're my buddy. We bailed you out, we gave you NAFTA, which is about free trade. This isn't free trade. This is a conspiracy to rob the American people. Now you sell us now ten times as many cars as we sell you. We're putting a 50 percent tariff on every car that comes north from Mexico until you start pumping oil to the max.
BLITZER: What happens in the course of the coming months, you determine based on the public opinion polls, assuming you get the Reform Party nomination, that you're going to take a lot of votes away from George W. Bush, it's going to be a close contest between Bush and Gore and in effect what you, Pat Buchanan are going to do, is guarantee Al Gore will be the next president.
BUCHANAN: You know, Wolf, before I made this decision to go, I thought it over, I thought of the Supreme Court, I thought of Mr. Bush versus Mr. Gore, I was, I'm one of those, quite frankly, who doesn't believe Mr. Bush will beat Mr. Gore in a two-man race. I thought of the Republican establishment calling on everybody's loyalty again, for policies, foreign policies, trade policies in which I disbelieve. And I decided it's time the American people had a new party.
Quite frankly, in a new party, talk -- the key issues, look what's going on in Kosovo and Bosnia.
BLITZER: Before we get to that, in 92 you had a similar opportunity when you decided to vote George Bush, support George Bush, senior.
BUCHANAN: In '92 I gave my word when I went into New Hampshire, they said, Pat if we vote for you, will you support Bush if you lose? I said yes, vote for me, we'll send him a message even if I do lose. I said I would do it in '96.
BUCHANAN: If you recall in this year, Wolf, I think a lot of folks asked me, will you support the nominee if you lose? And I never said definitely I will.
BLITZER: Listen to what you said though in '96 at the convention, because it does show how you shifted.
BUCHANAN: Convention in '96. I didn't speak at the convention in '96.
BLITZER: This was Buchanan at the 1996 Republican National Convention.
BUCHANAN: All right, let's take a look at it.
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BUCHANAN: You know, America does not necessarily need a third party. What we need is a fighting second party, a party that means it when it says, says what it means and means what it says.
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BUCHANAN: That was about 45 miles north of the convention.
BLITZER: That was just before the Republican National Convention. All right, the point is, in '96 you said America does not necessarily need a third party.
BUCHANAN: Exactly.
BLITZER: Why does it need a third party now when four years ago it did not?
BUCHANAN: Because let me point up the consistency here. The third party is essential to create a real two-party system instead of the present fraud that we have right now where both parties are globalist, interventionist, free trade, new world order.
What we need is one party that believes that but the other is populist, conservative, traditionalist, America first, keeps us out of wars that are none of our business, gets American troops out of Kosovo and Bosnia within one year and gets all American ground forces home to the United States of America before the end of the first term of the next president. And that's what I'm committed to do. This global intervention has done us no good. It has made us enemies. And by the end of the first term of the next president it will be 15 years after the Berlin Wall fell. American ground forces ought to be home in the United States where they belong.
BLITZER: And very briefly, on this issue of globalism, you basically don't see any significant difference between Al Gore and George Bush?
BUCHANAN: Well, except that George Bush is more enthusiastic about permanent MFN than Al Gore is. At least Gore tells the labor fellas, look, if you don't get it, I'll give you a side deal. I'll get you a better deal if we lose it. So Gore is better than Mr. Bush on that issue.
BLITZER: All right. Pat Buchanan, saying Gore is better than George Bush.
BUCHANAN: On that issue.
BLITZER: On that issue. Stand by. We have to take a quick break.
Up next: your phone calls for the Reform Party presidential candidate, Pat Buchanan and LATE EDITION will be right back.
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BLITZER: Welcome back to LATE EDITION. We're continuing our conversation with Reform Party presidential candidate Pat Buchanan.
Last week on this program, Mr. Buchanan, Jack Kemp, the Republican vice presidential nominee of four years ago, was on, and he said he's happy you're no longer in the Republican Party. And listen to his explanation why.
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JACK KEMP (R), FORMER VICE PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Pat Buchanan's reform message is, in my opinion, xenophobic, protectionist, isolationist and illiberal, in the classical use of that word.
So let him run and have George Bush run as the reform candidate.
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BLITZER: How does it feel to have -- how does it feel to have your former close friend, someone like Jack Kemp -- you've worked with him over the years -- come out and say good riddance to Pat Buchanan from the Republican Party?
BUCHANAN: Well, Jack is right. I don't belong in the present Republican Party that the establishment runs here in Washington, D.C. I don't believe in the globalism Jack believes in.
He mentioned the classical liberals. They are a 19th century group that I think is profoundly wrong.
Our founding fathers -- Wolf, you know, Washington and Hamilton and Clay and Lincoln and Theodore Roosevelt, who said I thank God I'm not a free trader, these men believed in economic patriotism in trade policies that guaranteed the economic independence of the United States.
Jack's a globalist. Jack's a new -- I mean, Jack's a Davos Republican.
BLITZER: But now you're in a party with Lenora Fulani, leftist, Fred Newman, people who had such controversial left-wing backgrounds, how does it...
BUCHANAN: Fred Newman, whoever he is, said: If Buchanan's elected -- I support him, but if he's elected I'm heading for the Canadian border.
Look, Lenora Fulani supports me because I support real reform. I'm for term limits for members of Congress, eliminating congressional pensions.
And, Wolf, I am for a national initiative and referendum. That's law 'd' democracy. The American people, give them the right to repeal laws and to write laws, each election. To me, that is small 'd' democracy. That's real reform.
BLITZER: You know, four years ago, the former Colorado governor, Dick Lamm, decided he wanted to run for the Reform Party...
BUCHANAN: I know he did.
BLITZER: ... presidential nomination. And then out of the blue Ross Perot came back and said: You know what, I'm going to run.
And he, of course, got the nomination.
Are you convinced Ross Perot will not do that to you this time?
BUCHANAN: Look, I'm not convinced Ross Perot's not going to get in this race. But Wolf, you should never confuse me with Dick Lamm, who's a nice fellow. I mean, I know what we're doing. We've been at this for six months. I went up to Delaware, we got all the delegates there yesterday. Virginia next Saturday, Alaska this week.
Little by little, we are making this a Buchanan populous, conservative, traditionalist party so that by this summer when we go to that convention they're going to be as unified as the Rockettes.
I mean, we're going to have a great little fighting party and a third party to offer the American people. And you will be astonished how strong we'll be.
BLITZER: Are you in touch with Ross Perot?
BUCHANAN: No, I'm not.
BLITZER: Do you talk to him at all?
BUCHANAN: No, his folks have, you know, given me various signals. We see the smoke signals coming off the top of the mountain, but I have not talked to him personally.
BLITZER: No smoke signals, saying, run, Pat, run.
BUCHANAN: I think initially the smoke signal said that, Pat, we welcome you into the race if you want to run for the nomination. I think there was bad blood between he and Ventura, Mr. Ventura left the party, Mr. Trump departed the party, Mr. Gargen, who was anti-Perot, is out of the party. Pat Choate, his vice presidential candidate, is now the chairman of the party. This party is coming together. It's going to take time, there's going to be a few more bloodbaths, but it's going to be done.
BLITZER: And finally, your strong positions against abortion rights for women, a lot of Reform Party members don't share that position.
BUCHANAN: Yes, but they know me and they know I'm pro-life and I'm not going to change.
BLITZER: And that's that?
BUCHANAN: That's that.
BLITZER: OK, Pat Buchanan, wants to be the Reform Party presidential candidate. Thanks for joining us.
BUCHANAN: You're not going to give me any callers here, Wolf.
BLITZER: Unfortunately, we're all out of time.
BUCHANAN: Let's get Steve Roberts group to applaud again, all right.
BLITZER: Next time. Pat, Pat Buchanan, thanks for joining us.....
