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PAT BUCHANAN DISCUSSES THE KOSOVO CRISIS, THE COLUMBINE SHOOTINGS AND HIS STANCE ON IMMIGRATION CNBC: RIVERA LIVE - http://www.cnbc.com/ May 6, 1999

GERALDO RIVERA, host: He is one of the most controversial figures on the American political landscape, a senior adviser to presidents Nixon and Reagan, and a two-time candidate for the Republican presidential nomination. Now Pat Buchanan, who scared the pants off mainstream Republicans with his strong showings in 1992 and '96, is running once again as a populist 'America first' candidate. The outspoken author, columnist and TV commentator has been hitting some of his traditional issues on the campaign trail, like immigration reform and more secure border crossings, and opposition to affirmative action and racial quotas. But his extremely provocative comments on recent events, ranging from Kosovo to Columbine High, are what caught our attention. And Mr. Buchanan joins us tonight in Detroit to discuss it all. Welcome to the program. Mr. BUCHANAN: Thank you, Geraldo. RIVERA: You know, sometimes I think you're one of the most refreshingly candid men in the business of politics and other times I think you're like Jerry Springer. You know exactly what you're doing. You're a very smart person, but you're playing to the cheap seats for effect. Now do you really mean, you know, some of the things you say or are they just hyperbole? Mr. BUCHANAN: You know, Geraldo, that's what folks say about you. RIVERA: All right. So tha--we're--we're birds of a feather in that sense, perhaps. Mr. BUCHANAN: I don't think so. No, I think Pat Buchanan has a reputation as a man who says what he means and means what he says. And I think my record is certainly one of consistency, whether you agree or disagree with what I have to say. I've been pretty much saying it my whole life. And I have changed on some issues, like I used to be a free trader, and I do think that free trade is costing American workers' jobs and deindustrializing this country and costing us our sovereignty. I believed in the Cold War, because I believed it was America's war, and supported every military action every president took in that war. But I don't believe Kosovo, for example, Geraldo, is America's war. It is Europe's war. It's a Balkan civil war in which we have no vital interests. RIVERA: All right. Let me--we'll get to Kosovo. Mr. BUCHANAN: Sure. RIVERA: Let me start with Littleton, Colorado. Mr. BUCHANAN: Sure. RIVERA: All right. Here's your point of view in a statement faxed to us last week. Now I'll quote your words. Mr.BUCHANAN: All right. RIVERA: "It is profoundly regrettable that the president has chosen to exploit the horrific premeditated massacre at Littleton to once again scapegoat sportsmen, hunters and law-abiding Americans who use guns for pleasure or personal and family safety," end quote. All right. That's what you said, your words. This is what a father who lost his own 15-year-old son in that massacre had to say. Roll tape A. Unidentified Man: Something is wrong in this country when a child can grab a guns--gu--grab a gun so easily and shoot a bullet into the middle of a child's face, as my son experienced. Something is wrong. RIVERA: Now you said the president is exploiting this issue to--to push his anti-gun agenda. Was that father who lost his son exploiting the--the tragedy to push the anti-gun issue? Mr. BUCHANAN: Of course not, Geraldo. I can understand the agony of that father, and I think every American shares it, and it is horrific. But these two kids did not, as that father said, grab that gun. They plotted this for a full year. They plotted a massacre and murder of their classmates going to a sen--who went to a senior prom with them. They planned to kill as many as they could. They wanted to shoot girls in the face and kill athletes and shoot a black kid simply because he was black. This was a long-planned murder. They violated 19 gun laws and explosive laws. And while all of us grieve with that father, anyone who suggests that the 20th law passed by the Congress of the United States would have prevented this horrific tragedy, I believe, would be engaging in demagoguery. We have got to get... RIVERA: Wait, wait. There's 250,000 TEC DC-9s on the--on the streets today. Mr. BUCHANAN: Geraldo--Geraldo... RIVERA: Wait a second. Wait. Let me finish. These guns... Mr. BUCHANAN: I--I know how many guns there are, Geraldo, better than you. RIVERA:These guns can be purchased by an 18-year-old who has to be 21 years old to purchase a beer. Isn't that the real obscenity? Mr. BUCHANAN: Geraldo, we are talking about Columbine High. And what I want to know and what America wants to know is: Who put the idea of poison and filth into the mind of two 18-year-old kids so that they thought it would be, quote, "a good way to go out," to massacre and murder their classmates? Now they sawed off a legal shotgun, which was a violation of a gun law. They brought it onto a school yard, which was a violation of a gun law. They built pipe bombs, which are violations of laws. If anybody, Geraldo, tries to tell the American people that, 'Look, folks, pass a couple more gun laws, and it's gonna prevent this,' they're not speaking the truth, Geraldo. RIVERA: Is it OK... Mr. BUCHANAN: And it is a time for truth. RIVERA: Is it OK for your 18-year-old to have a TEC DC-9? Mr.BUCHANAN: It is their... RIVERA: Do want your 18-year-old to have one? Mr.BUCHANAN: I do not want--no kid should have a gun on a c--on a high school campus, I believe, quite frankly. And the idea of searching in this... RIVERA: But in his bedroom, in his clubhouse? Mr. BUCHANAN: In this--listen, I believe in the idea of necessary and troubled schools of searching lockers for guns and--if you have to, to prevent them to go on there. And local laws should be the ones to work on that. RIVERA:Sixty-three percent of Americans questioned said that they favor stricter gun laws, and you accuse the president of exploitation. (Graphic on screen) Stricter Gun Control Laws April 19 May 2 Favor: 55% 63% Oppose: 34% 31% Source: Associated Press Mr. BUCHANAN: Now look, 63 percent of the American people can favor gun laws, but I believe Mr. Clinton leapt upon this the way other liberals and the president leapt on Oklahoma City when they falsely and maliciously charged Rush Limbaugh and Newt Gingrich and Republican conservatives with creating an anti-government philosophy, an idea in which McVeigh acted. That was demagoguery, Geraldo, and someone needs to call the liberals to account when they engage in it. RIVERA: Well, if the liberals did that, they should, indeed, be called to account. Let me move on to Kosovo... Mr. BUCHANAN: Sure. RIVERA: ...'cause back in March, your Buchanan 2000 press release said--and I'll quote you again--"NATO was created to defend Western Europe against Soviet aggression, not to serve as the air arm of some highly suspect 'Kosovo Liberation Army' in its war of secession from the former Yugoslavia. What has Slobodan Milosevic done to the Albanians that Mr. Clinton's 'strategic partners' in Beijing have not done to the Tibetans?" end quote. Mr. BUCHANAN: Right. RIVERA: And you--you call the NATO bombardment of Serbia an illegal war and you accuse the president, in this case, of ushering in a human rights catastrophe. And you conclude, quote, "America has no vital interest in whose flag flies over the Kosovo capital, and no right to attack and kill Serb soldiers fighting on their own soil to preserve the territorial integrity of their own country." I was under the impression that during--and I was in Bosnia--I was under the impression that when the Serb army pushed across Bosnia-Herzegovina and were going into Croatia that you advocated using the 6th Fleet to stop the Serb army and to--to bomb them. Isn't that a fact? Mr. BUCHANAN: No, it's not. I urged the 6th Fleet to stop the shelling from the sea of Dubrovnik. I urged the Germans... RIVERA: So you did--you did urge American involvement, though. Mr. BUCHANAN: Hold it. Ho--but look, her... RIVERA: I want to know wh--why not--why in Croatia and not in Kosovo? Are the Cro--Croatian Christian civilians' suffering any worse than the... Mr. BUCHANAN: You mean are they--are you trying to say... RIVERA: ...the Ko--Kosovar Muslim civilians' suffering? Mr. BUCHANAN: Are you--Geraldo, are you trying to say I only support Croatians because they're Catholic? RIVERA: I don't know. You tell me what the difference is. Mr. BUCHANAN: I--all right. All right. If you will calm down a minute, I will. The Croatians, in my judgment, I believe they had a right to self-determination. They had been a country. It had, frankly, been allied with the Germans in World War II. But they had been a country. They broke away. It was 88 percent Croatian. It was not--it was basically contiguous with Slovenia that broke away. And when the shelling of Dubrovnik took place, I said the 6th Fleet could chase those boats out of there without firing a shot, and I favored that. This is a different situation. RIVERA: Isn't it--why--why is it different? Mr. BUCHANAN: This is a holy place. It's holy--Geraldo... RIVERA: Why--why is it different? Why is it different? Mr. BUCHANAN: All right. It is different for this reason. RIVERA: If--if Croatia was part of Yugoslavia, Slobodan Milosevic is president of Yugoslavia. Mr. BUCHANAN: All right. RIVERA: Kosovo is part of Yugoslavia. What's the difference? Mr. BUCHANAN: All right. The difference is... RIVERA: Why yes, Croatia; no, Kosovo? Mr. BUCHANAN: Hold it, Geraldo. RIVERA: OK. Mr. BUCHANAN: The difference is your own president does not believe that Kosovo should be or is independent. Your own president doesn't think it should be recognized as independent. What I argued was NATO--it was illegal because the president had not consulted the House or the Congress. Secondly, it was a mistake because what would happen naturally happened. H--everything he projected to happen did not happen. He ignited the very human rights catastrophe--I think--I don't know if you went over there and saw it--but the very human rights... RIVERA: I did. I saw it. I saw it in Bosnia and I saw it again in Albania and Kosovo. Mr. BUCHANAN: And he ignited the very human rights catastrophe NATO tried to avoid. RIVERA: You don't blame Slobodan Milosevic, the man who herded those people onto freight cars in the--I--I've nev--I've been in every war since Laos and Cambodia, and I've never seen anything like this. I've never seen whole villages wiped out. I've never seen towns depopulated. I've never seen the men separated from the children to be slaughtered the way they have been. I never saw that. I never... Mr. BUCHANAN: Well--well, you never... RIVERA: And you don't blame Milosevic for any of that? Mr. BUCHANAN: No, because that's probably because you never got inside the Communist countries that won. But what happened in Kosovo is--i--is--is wrong, it is wretched, it is revolting, it is a human rights catastrophe. But it was virtually predictable. My argument is NATO is a defensive alliance. All of us support that on the idea that any NATO country attacked, all of them will fight together. I believe diplomacy should have been tried, Geraldo. Before this six weeks' war, in one year of fighting, 2,000 people died. Now that's an ugly little war. It is not a holocaust. It is not genocide. RIVERA: There is plenty, plenty more than that who are--are missing, but--and... Mr. BUCHANAN: They're missing now. They--they certainly are. RIVERA: OK. Let's call a--let's call a temporary time-out to this... Mr. BUCHANAN: Sure. RIVERA: ...this dialogue. Mr. BUCHANAN: All right. RIVERA: I've gotta take a commercial break. Buchanan 2000, he's running, and we're running to commercial. Be right back. Stay tuned... (Announcements) (Excerpt from "Hardball with Chris Matthews") Mr. DAVID DUKE: I like Patrick Buchanan because he has an 'America first' policy, believes in putting this country first. CHRIS MATTHEWS (Host): So he'd probably get your vote. (End of excerpt) RIVERA: Would you accept that endorsement by the former Ku Klux Klan leader David Duke, Pat? Mr. BUCHANAN: Oh, you re--you referring to me? RIVERA: Yeah. Mr. BUCHANAN: I didn't see that on the screen, but, no, I didn't ask for Mr. Duke's endorsement, and--and--so no. RIVERA: Are you embarrassed by it? Mr. BUCHANAN: No, I think what David Duke has done in Louisiana--incidentally, Geraldo, I'm probably one of the only Republicans in America that ever defeated David Duke 3:1 in the South Carolina primary... RIVERA: Thank goodness for that. Mr. BUCHANAN: 3:1 in Louisiana in 1992. RIVERA: Oh, I applaud that, too. Mr. BUCHANAN: I didn't just talk about it. I went down there and defeated him. RIVERA: Good. Mr. BUCHANAN: But I will say now that Mr. Duke has been defeated, I don't believe in beating up on someone who's been defeated. If he's endorsed me, he's--I'm not sure which ideas he's endorsed, but they're my ideas. RIVERA: America first--does that mean that--you--your policy on immigration--let me just--let me just speak about that, because that's really what impacts Latin people, you know, my people... Mr. BUCHANAN: Sure. RIVERA: ...most profoundly. Don't you think that your harsh stance on immigration, not to mention affirmative action--that's a whole other program we can have, and I think on--on that one, we'd have quite the debate. Mr. BUCHANAN: Right. RIVERA: But on--on immigration, don't you think that that stand forced the whole of the GOP to the right on the issue, and don't you think that led to the debacle in California in the last election where the minority vote really turned out to really give a big thumbs-down to Dan Lungren, the--the would-be successor to Pete Wilson, because of the Draconian anti-immigration policies? Mr. BUCHANAN: No, I think your analysis is dead wrong on this one, Geraldo. And Pete Wilson, as you know, took the issue of illegal immigration that I talked about in '92, and it was the only thing that saved him against Kathleen Brown in 1994, when he swept to election. In the proposition--I believe it was 187... RIVERA: Right. Mr. BUCHANAN: ...to cut off welfare to people who break the law and break into the country, 60 percent of Californians supported that--I think a--a majority--or almost a majority of African-Americans and about 37 percent or 35 percent of Hispanic-Americans. So these issues of whether people ought to be arrow--allowed to break laws and break into our country, I think I've got the support of 90 percent of the people on illegal immigration. And for a time-out or a moratorium on legal immigration, cut it back to 250,000 a year, our traditional level, I think I've got the support of about 75 percent or 80 percent. RIVERA: Well, I think it'll really cost you in California, but we can disagree on that. I just want to... Mr. BUCHANAN: I didn't lose California. RIVERA: All right. Here--here is a... Mr. BUCHANAN: I do better in California than other states. RIVERA: Here is--here's what you s--another thing you said about the president. Mr. BUCHANAN: Sure. RIVERA: I know you really don't like the guy, but--'At a time when America desperately needed--needs to hear an authentic voice of moral authority from the White House, the office is regrettably occupied by a draft dodger in the cultural war for the soul of America.' You know, as a--as a--as a man who never served himself, do you think that that is proper to constantly refer to the president as a draft dodger? Mr. BUCHANAN: Well, I was referring to--well, first off, I did spend--I volunteered at 17 to go into the Army in ROTC and spent three and a half years before they dropped me out. So I don't think I've got the same record certainly on the war. Where Mr. Clinton was over in--in London demonstrating against American kids fighting and dying in Vietnam, I was in the White House trying to support them to the best we could in those years. So I do not equate my record with that of Mr. Clinton's. Secondly, I don't dislike Bill Clinton personally at all. I met him. He's been very gracious to me personally. I reject the notion that I am any kind of Clinton hater. But I am--was concerned and I believe he has not used that bully pulpit, Geraldo, to really take on the people in Hollywood who are putting the filthy and poison into the popular culture of this country from which these kids were drinking. RIVERA: OK. Mr. BUCHANAN: Now people in--in the business--liberals have denounced Joe Camel because they say that cartoon character convinces kids to smoke cigarettes, but "Natural Born Killers" is OK? RIVERA: OK. Mr. BUCHANAN: These--these videos, this rap music is OK? RIVERA: There'll be--there will be hearings here in the nation's capital on Monday. We will--we will be attending. Pat Buchanan, they say the same thing about you, that in person, you are a gracious man, that you are affable... Mr. BUCHANAN: Right. RIVERA: ...and easy to get along with. I hear it even from Michael Kinsley, the famed liberal. So, you know, it must be so. And I appreciate you coming on the program. Mr. BUCHANAN: Well, thank you for the time, Geraldo. And let's do it again. RIVERA: OK. OK. Mr. BUCHANAN: And you tell my friends to call 1 (800) GO-PAT-GO!