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PATRICK BUCHANAN TALKS ABOUT GOVERNOR GEORGE W. BUSH AND THE RACE WITHIN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY by Don Feder CNBC HARDBALL - http://www.cnbc.com/ June 14, 1999

ANCHORS: CHRIS MATTHEWS Governor GEORGE W. BUSH (Republican, Texas): Chris, I--I think it's important for any of us who assume high office to understand when we put our hand on the Bible, that we swear in not only to uphold the laws of the land, but that we swear in to uphold the dignity of the office to which we've been elected. CHRIS MATTHEWS, host: Patrick J. Buchanan, you saw the man there. He seemed to be rehearsing for the oath-taking in the year 2001. What do you make of that? He basically said, 'I'm going to swear to uphold not just the law of the land, but the dignity of the presidential office.' What do you make of that commitment? Mr. PATRICK BUCHANAN (Republican Presidential Candidate): I'd say good for Governor Bush. I think one of the things that's bothered me most, Chris, as an eight-year veteran of the White House, is seeing the way that the people's house and the secular temple of our civilization has been dragged through the mud and turned into a place to shake down corporate executives and renting out the Lincoln Bedroom, and the abuse of the travel office permanent staff. That's been one of the most appalling things of the Clinton administration, and I say good for Governor Bush on that. MATTHEWS: Do you think that's something of--we've talked about it--maybe not well--on this show before. Do you think that insolence towards authority or insolence towards tradition--we saw it evidenced in things like that military man who came upon the White House lawn one day and was abused by a young staffer. We've seen it in the failure of White House staff people to even bother getting security clearances. They don't think they have to do that sort of thing. Is this a generational thing, Pat? I know you're a bit older than the president, but who's--what do you think's going on here? Mr. BUCHANAN: It is--you can't say it's a complete generational thing. After all, those folks up there on the wall at the Vietnam Veterans Memorial, they're baby boomers, too, and they certainly respected authority and did their duty. But there is a part of the baby boomer generation, you might call it the Woodstock flank, that has an utter disrespect for traditions and an enormous high regard for itself. And so I think certainly that is true. MATTHEWS: Let's talk about the--the president--the president potential. What a mistake that was. George W. Bush saying that--that he basically won't talk about his past. He's said--he's sort of discussed it in sort of rev--general terms. I always compare him to like St. Augustine. And he had a wild youth, like many of us did... Mr. BUCHANAN: Right. MATTHEWS: ...and--and has cleaned up his act, 'So why should I tell you about the Old Testament, when I'm selling the New Testament, which is me now?' Do you think that'll sell, given the appetite in the press for, 'OK, buddy, what'd you do?' Mr. BUCHANAN: I don't know if it will or not, Chris. But I do hope that after we've gone through this miserable year with the Monica Lewinsky and all these other things about Bill Clinton, that we do focus this election on where America is going. Now George Bush today, unlike in Iowa, which I thought--that speech out there, I thought it called to mind the description of one of Warren Harding's, 'an army of pompous phrases, marching across the landscape in search of an idea.' Today he did hit very important issues: Immigration. He hit tariffs. He hit affirmative action. But I hope we stay off the personal nonsense. But I don't doubt that--look, the press is going to go after that, no doubt about it. MATTHEWS: Let's talk about that bigger fight, and that's the fight for the future of the Republican Party, before we even get to the future of the country. Mr. BUCHANAN: Right. MATTHEWS: He did hit all those buttons. He talked about trade. He talked about immigration. He talked about affirmative action. It seemed to me, just being a political pundit--that's all I am--he was picking a fight with you. Mr. BUCHANAN: I think that's exactly right. I think Governor Bush wants a fight with Buchanan for the heart and soul of the party, because he believes his views are more popular inside the party and in the country, and he wants to use me as a foil. I accept the challenge. Quite frankly, the governor's position on tariffs and trade is identical to Bill Clinton's and Al Gore's. And, Chris, that's giving us now a $ 325 billion merchandise trade deficit this year. That's a disaster. Affirmative action... MATTHEWS: Well, take issue on those four points. Explain to the viewers who don't know the nuance or the stark difference between you--let's take the trade issue quickly. He's a free trader. What are you? Mr. BUCHANAN: I believe in economic patriotism. The trade policy should be designed to guarantee Americans the highest standard of living in the world and the best jobs in the world for American workers, and we should stop sending our factories to Mexico and Taiwan and China. MATTHEWS: He made some very positive statements about Hispanic-Americans, people who've come to this country recently. Where do you stand on immigration across the southern border? Mr. BUCHANAN: I believe illegal immigration ought to be stopped cold. Illegal immigrants are responsible for a rising percentage of crime in this country. There are a huge number of those in federal prisons. On legal immigration--Chris, we have a problem of Balkanization of America. When kids in Chicago public schools are being taught in 100 different languages, we ought to realize that if we're going to be one nation and one people, we all have to learn the English language. It is a good thing the governor can speak a little Spanish, but he ought to address the issue that if we're going to remain one nation, we can't be like Canada, which has got two languages and coming apart. Czechoslovakia, coming apart; Bosnia, the whole Balkans coming apart over ethnicity, religion and race. And what we've got to do--and language--what we have to do is rebuild and reconstruct the melting pot, cut immigration back to about 250,000 a year, and make us one nation, and one people again. MATTHEWS: OK. The fight is over immigration; it's over trade. What about affirmative action? He left the door open to it today. Where do you stand? Mr. BUCHANAN: George Bush's father signed a quota bill, and that's one of the reasons I ran against him. His brother Jeb Bush refuses to allow the voters of Florida to vote on whether or not they want racial preferences. I'm with Ward Connerly. I disagree with the Bush brothers. I disagree with their father, George Bush, on this. Affirmative action and racial preferences are as wrong and as wicked in their character as the quotas that were put on Jewish people, and it's the discrimination that was done against black people. Simply because the victim of discrimination is a white male does not make it right. It doesn't make it just. And I will fight Governor Bush on this in the party, in the platform, and until my dying days, because I think that will help tear this country apart. More important, it is inherently and intrinsically wrong to discriminate in favor of one person because of his race and against another person, and I believe it's un-American. MATTHEWS: How about gender? Affirmative action on gender--is that wrong? Mr. BUCHANAN: I do not--there is one area--there are areas of gender, such as women in combat, I am against. But if you're talking about law school, or doctors or nurses or whatever, they have the same right and they ought to be allowed to compete with men except where gender does make a difference--I mean, coal miners or people who are--who are driving trucks and have to change tires, or people in combat. MATTHEWS: OK. Let's talk about the fourth issue of difference. That's the abortion issue. He said, George W. Bush, the governor of Texas, when he was here in New Hampshire today, that he would not ask a Supreme Court nominee, a candidate that he had put forward how he or she stood on abortion rights under the Constitution. What do you make of that proposal? Mr. BUCHANAN: Abdication, an abdication of his responsibility as a conservative and as a Republican. Bill Clinton picked Ruth Bader Ginsburg, an ultra liberal, and then he picked another liberal, Mr. Breyer, for the Supreme Court, because he knew they would maintain Roe v. Wade. I believe we've got a moral obligation to attempt to overturn that atrocity, that abomination known as Roe v. Wade and at least give this back to the states and the people. And I also think you've got a moral obligation as president to try to stand up and oppose what has been an appalling atrocity in this country, the slaughter of 35 million unborn. I disagree profoundly with the governor, and I cannot believe he would give up his authority to reshape a Supreme Court which has turned into a law giver for this country which it should never have been. MATTHEWS: Well, the battle's been joined today on affirmative action, on trade, on immigration. You've heard it here. Pat Buchanan's ready to fight. We'll be back with more of Pat. You're watching HARDBALL. (Announcements) Gov. BUSH: If I'm elected as president, I'll stand and ask for increased military exp--exp--spending, because we live in an uncertain world. In an uncertain world, America must still have a sharpened sword. I'm talking about anti-ballistic missile systems and the deployment of mi--anti-ballistic missile systems, because I don't ever want our country to be blackmailed or held hostage to some foreign country. MATTHEWS: Pat Buchanan, did he make a mistake then? Governor Bush was talking about the ABM system, some sort missile defense--point defense against ballistic missiles, those which leave the atmosphere and come back in again. Is that really the threat we face from terrorists, or did he make a mistake here? I thought we were more afraid of maybe cruise missiles or something like that being lobbed in here. Mr. BUCHANAN: Well, the governor's got a good point, Chris, in that Korea--North Korea has tested ballistic missiles of a range... MATTHEWS: OK. Mr. BUCHANAN: ...that can reach Alaska and Hawaii. And clearly, they're going to get to the point where they can reach the United States. But you make a good point. There's probably a far greater likelihood, in my judgment, if a terrorist is going to attack the United States or we're--we're going to be hit with a nuclear weapon, which, God forbid, I think it's more likely to come by merchant ship or Ryder truck or some small missile off the coast of this country than it is by ballistic missile where we can see where it's coming from. Because anyone that dared attack the United States with such a missile would be destroyed utterly. Although, I do agree with the governor we do need a ballistic missile defense. MATTHEWS: But an ABM isn't sufficient to protect us against that sort of small arms, you know... Mr. BUCHANAN: Exactly, Chris. MATTHEWS: Right. Mr. BUCHANAN: And this is the problem with this global interventionism and the moral imperialism we're seeing where we hit Afghanistan and Sudan and Iraq and Serbia, and we bust up everybody we don't like. One day someone is going to gather one of these things from some rogue nation or maybe from the Soviet Union or whatever, one of these missiles floating around or these warheads, I should say, put it on a merchant ship and, Lord forbid, what's going to happen then? It'll be an act of cataclysmic terrorism. To me, I am more apprehensive of that in the future--in the immediate future, than I am of the ballistic missile. MATTHEWS: And your solution is to not make so many enemies. Mr. BUCHANAN: My solution is to stay out of wars that are none of America's business and stay out of quarrels that are none of our business. After the Cold War, which was an extraordinary time, we should return to the philosophy of Washington and Jefferson and Quincy Adams where America has no permanent alliances or entangling alliances, but temporary alliances, and we really retain our freedom of action and independence, not isolation, but an independent foreign policy where we alone decide when, where and whether Americans go to war. MATTHEWS: Well, during the Cold War, which lasted 50 years, we were strong allies with the state of Israel. Do we need to honor that alliance in the same regard now? Because we no longer are co-alli--allies against the Soviet or Chinese threat. We're basically independent countries of each other and in a--in a non-strategic threat situation. Do you think we should drop that alliance now that we're free to fend for ourselves? Mr. BUCHANAN: Well, we have no formal alliance that I'm aware of, although Clinton made some commitments at the Wye agreement. What we have is sort of a moral commitment that Richard Nixon honored when I was there in '73 when the Russians were going to intervene in the Yom Kippur War, and they moved through the Dardanelles with nuclear weapons. I think we have a moral commitment to Israel. But Israel has always said, in effect, 'Give us the tools, and we will do the job.' MATTHEWS: Right. Mr. BUCHANAN: I think we ought to maintain that relationship, certainly. And clearly I think the world knows if there were some all-out Arab attack or Islamic attack 10 years down the road on Israel, the United States would stand with Israel. I think there's no one that would eliminate that commitment. MATTHEWS: OK. Pat, you know, H.L. Mencken once said that you never argue with, you never argue with a man whose job depends on not being convinced. So I will now make the Bush argument. He says the party has to unite against Clinton and Gore; it's time to pull ranks together, to build a big tent. And, in fact, he says, 'The only person that disagrees with me about that basically is you.' What do you say? Mr. BUCHANAN: Well, what I would say is this: Look, we ran--I mean, Governor Bush clearly is going to run as a moderate to liberal Republican from all he's saying right now. I would say, look, we did that twice. The first time we got 37 percent, and the last time 43 percent of the vote. We've got to get back to Perot voters, Reagan Democrats, working-class people who are hurt by these NAFTA agreements that Mr. Bush is celebrating, people who are hurt by massive illegal immigration which causes crime, and folks taking jobs that belong to working people. So the path he's going down--we've been down there twice. We've gone to defeat twice. Why don't we try something new, something different, something bold, and run against the establishment of both parties? MATTHEWS: Is he basically running a Tom Dewey campaign? Mr. BUCHANAN: No. He--I think he's--I don't know why he's doing it, to be honest, but he seems to be deciding to run an out and out moderate liberal campaign and he's echoing a lot of members in the leadership of the Congress who don't want confrontation with Clinton, who want to move close to him. And to me, that is a formula for defeat. If you've got two moderates running, why not take the one that's--who really believes it, who's a Democrat? MATTHEWS: OK. Mr. BUCHANAN: When we win, is when we run a Ronald Reagan vs. Mondale or a Reagan vs. a Carter. MATTHEWS: OK. Thank you very much, Patrick J. Buchanan. He's up in Boston. We're talking about the battle for New England. It's just starting. I want to thank you.