This is TALK OF THE NATION. I'm Juan
Williams.
Pat Buchanan now appears certain to be the Reform
Party's candidate for president this fall. With
deadlines passing for challengers to get on the ballot
in key states, it is now nearly impossible for anyone
to deny Buchanan the nomination. He will apparently
be crowned at the Reform Party's convention
August 10th to 13th in Long Beach, California. With
the nomination seemingly in hand, Buchanan has
been working to strengthen the party and to build a
new political identity for himself. The new Pat
Buchanan focuses less on his strong social
conservatism, such as his support for outlawing
abortion and his opposition to gay rights.
Instead, Buchanan is concentrating on economics,
specifically his opposition to free trade and the
globalization policies of organizations such as the
International Monetary Fund and the World Bank.
The new Pat Buchanan now gets invitations to speak
from the Teamsters union and finds friends among
the young anarchists who held angry protests in
Seattle and Washington, DC.
Buchanan has also gathered enough signatures to put
the Reform Party on the ballot in five more states
than the 21 that he automatically received on the
basis of Ross Perot's showing in 1996. Perot is the
only other man to have been the party's presidential
nominee. Meanwhile, there are elements of the party
that remain antagonistic to Buchanan. They are
trying to break off and form independent parties
rather than support him. For example, Minnesota's
Governor Jesse Ventura has resigned from the
Reform Party and has his own organization. Perot
himself has neither embraced nor distanced himself
from Buchanan, but people close to the Texas
billionaire have expressed reservations about a social
conservative such as Buchanan heading the Reform
Party ticket. Perot reportedly has no plans to go to
the convention.
Buchanan faces another hurdle in getting on stage
for the presidential debates in the fall. His support in
polls runs between 3 and 5 percent nationwide.
Debate organizers insist on 15 percent support for a
candidate to get an invitation to the debates.
Buchanan supporters are suing the Federal Election
Commission to get into those debates.
So has Pat Buchanan succeeded in re-inventing
himself as an underdog fighting the entrenched
political power of Republicans, Democrats and even
old-time Reform Party regulars such as Jesse
Ventura? Could you support the new Pat Buchanan?
My guest this hour is Pat Buchanan, Reform Party
presidential candidate and author of "A Republic, Not
An Empire" and "The Great Betrayal."
Welcome to the program.
Mr. PAT BUCHANAN (Reform Party Presidential
Candidate): Thank you, Juan.
WILLIAMS: If you want to join the conversation,
our number here is (800) 989-8255. That's 1 (800)
989-TALK.
Pat Buchanan, where does the campaign stand at
this moment?
Mr. BUCHANAN: We are on our way to the
Reform Party nomination. It is not locked up, Juan. I
think it would take an individual who is well-known
with a lot of money to step in and try to, in effect,
you know, win a mail ballot against us to beat us for
that nomination right now. Probably somebody could
step in, but he'd have to be very well-known.
On getting on the ballots, we have not missed a state
deadline yet. You are right. We are on probably
maybe 25 or 26, although that's not con--some of
them haven't confirmed yet. I'm going to go down to
North Carolina on Thursday and we're going to file
for the state of North Carolina. Something like 60
percent more signatures than we need. We are on
target to reach a ballot position in all 50 states. Once
we get that, once we get the Reform Party
nomination, once we get our campaign up and
running, we think after Labor Day, we can turn it
into a three-way race. It's imperative that we get in
the debates.
WILLIAMS: Just before we look at the idea of you
and contrast you with Mr. Gore and Mr. Bush, let
me say that I've read that several state Reform
Parties have, in fact, split away from the Reform
Party rather than support you. I'm reading here that
Wisconsin, for example, now has two Reform
Parties. We know that's the case in Minnesota with
Jesse Ventura. Is this something that people are
reluctant to embrace you, the old-party regulars in
the Reform Party?
Mr. BUCHANAN: Well, there's no doubt about it.
There's elements inside the Reform Party that are
deeply resistant to my nomination. But take
Minnesota. We told Governor Ventura that we
would be delighted to come up there and challenge
him for the Reform Party delegates from Minnesota.
Governor Ventura walked out of the Reform Party,
took his party out of the Reform Party. We've
created a new Reform Party of Minnesota. We have
all the delegates, we have all the national committee
people. There will be no problem seating that party at
our convention in Long Beach. That's the only party
claiming to be the Reform Party of Minnesota.
Wisconsin and Georgia, there are some states where
there are two parties now, one claiming to be the
official party and the other newly created by our
folks, who are denied the right to participate in that
party. So we'll have some credentials battles at the
conventions. That's no unusual. I noticed Mr.
McCain is having credentials battles with Governor
Bush. And if you take Mr. Bradley is probably
winning something like 25 percent of the vote in
some states still against Mr. Gore. So there's
resistance in all three parties to the perspective
nominee. Ours isn't vastly different. I will say this.
Many of the Perot people were the ones who
originally invited me into the party to challenge
Governor Ventura or Donald Trump or Warren
Beatty.
And I think, Juan, at that point, they should have
known that Pat Buchanan was a social conservative,
strongly pro-life, that he had not embraced the gay
rights agenda in its entirety, that I'm a social
conservative. And so I don't know that there's any
great awakening here.
WILLIAMS: You know, I think lots of people have
been surprised that the Teamsters would have invited
you to speak when the rallies were held here in
Washington against the World Bank. And I think
people are surprised about your alliance with Lenora
Fulani and other left-wingers.
Mr. BUCHANAN: Mm-hmm.
WILLIAMS: What's this new side of Pat
Buchanan?
Mr. BUCHANAN: Well, first the Teamster rally
was more targeted on permanent normal trade
relations with Communist China. I stand with the
Teamster folks that we ought to put human rights
and national security above the profit margins of the
Fortune 500, which I think this trade deal is appalling.
It's not a deal for American workers. We don't sell
peanuts in terms of exports to China. It's an
investment deal where American corporations can
shut down here, open up in China and get rid of their
American workers.
Lenora Fulani is an individual who was running, who
was in competition for control of the Reform Party in
New York. She was probably the third largest force
in the party, after the Perot-Ventura forces, and she
indicated that she wanted to support me for president
of the United States. I accept that support.
Let me say this, Juan, you know where I stand.
You've known me for years. I'm socially
conservative. It's not likely Buchanan's going to
convert to Marxism in his old age.
WILLIAMS: Yeah.
Mr. BUCHANAN: And so--but I will say this. If
you're willing to support me and you know my
agenda, we're not going to go back and do an
inspection on what your views are, even if we
disagree with them or we disagree with your past. I
had one fellow come up to me and said, 'Pat, you
know, when you were in the Nixon White House and
all those guys outside were throwing rocks at your
White House limo on the way home, I was one of
them.'
WILLIAMS: Right.
Mr. BUCHANAN: 'And now I'm with you.' And so
I say, 'Fine. You're with me. Let's go ahead.'
WILLIAMS: Boy, do you think President Nixon is
turning over in his grave?
Mr. BUCHANAN: President Nixon would be
extraordinarily interested in what I'm doing and he
would--in fact, I was at a Nixon Alumni
Association(ph) the other night here. We had a 25th
anniversary. And one fellow came up to me and said,
'Pat, if Richard Milhouse were here, he'd be sitting
across the table and saying, "Pat, this is very
interesting. Off the record, I think you're doing the
right thing."'
WILLIAMS: No kidding.
Mr. BUCHANAN: Sure. Well, Richard Nixon
himself thought of creating a new party at one time.
He was frustrated by some of the old-line
Republicans. He believed in ideas and his vision
much more than he believed and responded to a
party. He clearly was a good Republican, but--for
example, Nixon's ideas on foreign policy, he moved
in his direction, regardless of what the Republican
Party wanted. And my view is this, that I believe in
the ideas I put forward in those two books, "A
Republic, Not An Empire," and "The Great Betrayal,"
that we need economic patriotism in this country, we
need to think more about one another, rather than all
the stuff down at the mall, that we need to get our
boys out of places like Kosovo and Bosnia. And this
is a post-Cold War vision. I mean, I was a Cold
Warrior during the Cold War, but that's over, Juan.
It's over. And we've got to look at the world as it is
today, not as it was in 1965 or '75 or '85 when I was
in Ronald Reagan's White House.
WILLIAMS: So you don't think the Reaganites are
with you?
Mr. BUCHANAN: Oh, many--well, a lot of the
people who are with me, who have come with me
into the Reform Party are--they love Ronald Reagan.
And when I speak at a Reform Party gathering, for
example I'll get up and say that during the Cold War
I supported every action bold and aggressive by
every Cold War president in my lifetime, from
Eisenhower, through Kennedy, through Reagan. And
I think Ronald Reagan led us to victory in the Cold
War. Boom. They all applaud. There are Reaganites
in there.
WILLIAMS: There are Reaganites in there.
Mr. BUCHANAN: Oh, there are--I mean, the
Buchananites--I would say virtually 75 percent of the
Buchanan folks in the Reform Party were devout
Reaganites and remain true to that vision, a lot truer
than the Bush Republicans have.
WILLIAMS: Now, Pat, you're only getting about 3
to 5 percent in the national polls.
Mr. BUCHANAN: Mm-hmm.
WILLIAMS: Ralph Nader's, in fact, out-polling you
out in California and in Oregon.
Mr. BUCHANAN: Mm-hmm.
WILLIAMS: Why is that?
Mr. BUCHANAN: Well, we were getting 8 percent
when I got in the Reform Party. I don't think anyone
knows we're running right now, Juan, and we have
been out building this party on a state-by-state basis.
And I've had folks, I know who say, 'Pat, this would
have been your year. You should have run,' when
they see me at an airport.
WILLIAMS: This must be heart-breaking.
Mr. BUCHANAN: It's not heart-breaking, it's very
funny. But after we get the nomination and we get
our 12 or 13 million, whatever it is, and we get past
Labor Day...
WILLIAMS: Hang on a second. How do you get the
12 to 13 million?
Mr. BUCHANAN: I get nominated.
WILLIAMS: That's all it takes?
Mr. BUCHANAN: That's all it takes.
WILLIAMS: The minute that you have that
nomination, the federal government will hand you 12
or $ 13 million to run your campaign.
Mr. BUCHANAN: They will indeed and they'll hand
it to my little sister.
WILLIAMS: All right. Go right ahead.
Mr. BUCHANAN: So once we get that, and I think
we intend to emphasize the sharp differences I have
on interventionists, globalist foreign policy I disagree
with, on trade policy that's left us with the greatest
trade deficits in world history, on social policies
where I think the Republican Party has basically
caved in and compromised with Clinton, on tax cuts
and downsizing government. The Republican Party
has become a party of big government, Juan. Mr.
Clinton asked for a big increase in the Department of
Education and our fighting Republican Congress
gave him $ 1/2 billion more than he requested. I think
we have two big government Beltway parties which
are globalists, interventionists, which basically it is
like professional wrestling. They do battle and they
call each other names here in town. But when push
comes to shove, Tom DeLay goes out and whips
votes for Bill Clinton to help out the People's
Republic of China.
WILLIAMS: What about Al Gore?
Mr. BUCHANAN: Mr. Gore is a very opportunistic
politician. He's got certain capabilities. I don't think
he has Clinton's ability to connect or bond with
people. Clinton is a unique figure in this regard. I
think he's probably a better man, personally, than Mr.
Clinton is in terms of character. But I don't think he's
really struck any chords with the American people.
And he's in for--for a candidate of a party that is
running with the economy in seemingly good
condition, he doesn't look in all that good a condition
to me.
WILLIAMS: Now when it comes to George W.
Bush, the governor of Texas, it's possible that history
will simply record your campaign this time as an
effort that took support away from George W. Bush.
Would you be content if history recalled this
campaign in that way?
Mr. BUCHANAN: Well, if that's all they recorded
that we took a few votes from Mr. Bush, than the
effort will have failed. Clearly, I'm in this to win the
presidency of the United States. I do believe there's
great volatility in the American electorate. We saw
that with the McCain campaign. You saw it with
Ventura in 1998. He was at 10 percent in October
and suddenly vaulted to win the election. The
American people aren't satisfied with either of these
candidates. I think they're just sort of inured to it,
accepting of it, that we're going to get one of those
two as president. I don't think there's any wild
enthusiasm for either of them. Republicans seem to
be happy because Bush is doing well in the polls.
They're very sad when Bush was getting clobbered
by McCain. So I think it is wide open, Juan. I don't
think either one has closed the sale with the
American people. That's our opportunity.
WILLIAMS: We're going to take a short break right
now. You're listening to TALK OF THE NATION.
I'm Juan Williams. When we return, we'll continue
talking with Reform Party presidential candidate Pat
Buchanan and we'll begin taking your calls at (800)
989-8255. If you'd like to comment on the program,
please do. The address here is TALK OF THE
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At 21 minutes past the hour, it's TALK OF THE
NATION from NPR News.
(Soundbite of music)
WILLIAMS: Welcome back to TALK OF THE
NATION. I'm Juan Williams.
(Soundbite of press conference)
Governor JESSE VENTURA (Minnesota): There
becomes a time when you have to cut bait and go.
And I believe very strongly this is the time. I mean, I
can't stay within a national party that, you know,
could well have Pat Buchanan as its presidential
nominee and now the latest word I hear he's getting
support from David Duke. Well, I can't be part of
that. And I won't be part of that.
WILLIAMS: Joining us now is Gerry Moan, chair of
the Reform Party. He was vice chair but assumed
chairmanship three weeks ago after the chairman,
Pat Choate, resigned due to illness of a family
member.
Welcome to the program, Mr. Moan.
Mr. GERRY MOAN (Chairman, Reform Party):
Thank you, Juan. Thanks for having me.
WILLIAMS: There's been a lot of changes within
the Reform Party recently. Can you tell us what's
going on and what are your feelings about this?
Mr. MOAN: Well, I think it's unfortunate that Pat
Choate had to resign due to the illness of a family
member, but I think we're on track. I think Mr.
Buchanan, Mr. Hagelin and Mr. Collins, three of the
front-runners, I guess, for our nomination, are doing
what they have to do and it's unfortunate that, you
know, Mr. Ventura, who the only thing bigger than
his ego, I think, is the China trade deficit. I noticed
over the weekend he said he thought he could come
in and steal the election. Well, we don't think it's true
and we're glad he's starting a new party of his own.
WILLIAMS: Do you expect Ross Perot to get
involved?
Mr. MOAN: Well, I know there's a certain effort
going on, petitioning on his behalf. You know, the ball
rests in his court. By July 1st, he must say that 'I am
willing to run in the primary.' But I think he might
have said, you know--made some more public
comments about--especially the China trade deal
long before this, you know, if he was intending to
run.
WILLIAMS: What are your thoughts on Jesse
Ventura setting up a separate party?
Mr. MOAN: Well, you know, it's interesting. You
know, he used the Reform Party for all it was worth
and then never agreed with its platform. And then
cast us aside. I felt maybe not necessarily sorry for
Jack Gargan, his hand-picked person to be chairman,
that when the going got tough for Gargan, that Jesse
cut and run. And my saying has always been,
'Leaders lead, they don't run.' And that's what Jesse
has done.
WILLIAMS: Pat Buchanan and I were talking
before you came on about the number of Reform
Parties around the country who have been splitting
off. I think Pat mentioned Florida, Wisconsin.
Mr. BUCHANAN: No, I think there's a split in
Georgia and I believe in Wisconsin there's two
parties, I think, challenging.
WILLIAMS: OK.
Mr. MOAN: Right.
Mr. BUCHANAN: Mm-hmm.
Mr. MOAN: And there's always going to be a
certain amount of that. We had it in '99. We had it in
our convention in '98. So it's maybe a little bit more
pronounced this year only because the focus is in a
presidential election cycle. But where it all started
was in New Hampshire, but both sides are sitting
down and they're going to come to an agreement
mediated by me and others. And, you know, it's
going to be--I don't think the Reform Party will ever
be one big happy family, but I believe that, you know,
if both sides sit down together and see what's best
for the party that those things can happen in a
meaningful way.
WILLIAMS: But given what happened in Nashville
where there were TV pictures of two people
wrestling for the microphone and the police had to be
called, I think there's concern about what's going to
happen in August at your convention.
Mr. MOAN: I don't perceive--I mean, that was
a--that Nashville meeting was a natural progression
of a constitutional challenge to the way we do
business in the Reform Party. Mr. Gargan and his
followers failed to believe that the Constitution was
the main ruler of law in the Reform Party. And there
was obviously, as you can see from the pictures of
which I was one of those people--unfortunately my
15 seconds of fame was that picture--but the thing
was is that if you don't believe in the rule of law,
that's what the Reform Party stands for, a strong US
Constitution, then we can't sell our message to the
American public as candidates in any election.
WILLIAMS: Where does the money go to? Pat
Buchanan was telling me the minute that he gets the
nomination, a check comes from the government for
about $ 12 million, I believe.
Mr. MOAN: Yeah, it's $ 12.5 million. And as soon
as the results of the primary are certified by the
party, then the check is forwarded to the candidate
from the FEC.
WILLIAMS: So it goes to the candidate, not the
party.
Mr. MOAN: That's correct. The party has gotten
about $ 2 1/2 million to run the convention out in
Long Beach August 10th through the 13th. And
that's the only money the party will receive. The rest
of it is candidate money.
WILLIAMS: And what about the debates? Are you
trying to support Pat's efforts to get on the stage for
the national debates?
Mr. MOAN: Well, we've joined in the original
lawsuit that he filed against the Presidential Debate
Commission.
WILLIAMS: Oh, was that Pat's lawsuit? I thought
that was Fulani.
Mr. BUCHANAN: No, no. That's ours.
Mr. MOAN: No. She's got a--go ahead, Pat.
Mr. BUCHANAN: No, I'm sorry. That is the--we
have filed that, and the co-complaintant is the
Reform Party.
WILLIAMS: Oh, I didn't know that. OK. Oh, the
Reform Party is a co-complaintant in that suit.
Mr. BUCHANAN: Mm-hmm.
Mr. MOAN: That's correct.
WILLIAMS: I see. And so what are you requesting
of the Federal Elections Commission?
Mr. MOAN: Pat, I think you could speak more about
the lawsuit per se.
Mr. BUCHANAN: Sure. What we're asking is that,
look, the Presidential Debate Commission is
supposed to be non-partisan. It is not. It is bipartisan.
It is co-chaired by an ex-Democratic chair and Frank
Fahrenkopf, an ex-Republican chair. It has been set
up with the specific purpose, basically, of keeping
third parties out of the presidential debate. We have
three parties recognized by the Congress of the
United States and the FEC. To have two of them
conspiring to keep the third party out of the crucial
and decisive event of the elections is basically a
conspiracy to keep control of the White House that
we think ought to be thrown out, per se.
WILLIAMS: Gerry Moan, what about candidates for
other offices? I read where you said you hoped that
there would be maybe 35 seats in the Congress filled
with Reform Party candidates. Is that realistic?
Mr. MOAN: It may not be realistic, but at least it's a
target. You know, I'm hoping that we can have one
or two breakthroughs this year and who knows with
the closeness of the elections in the House for the
House leadership, a majority, that the Reform Party
will become a player. And at least we can build to
2002 with people like Pat's help and other
candidates.
WILLIAMS: Gerry Moan, chair of the Reform
Party. Thank you so much for joining us.
Mr. MOAN: Thank you, Juan, and take care, Pat.
Mr. BUCHANAN: All right. Take it easy, Gerry.
WILLIAMS: Today we're talking with Reform Party
presidential candidate Pat Buchanan about his
presidential aspirations and the politics of the Reform
Party. If you want to join the conversation, our
number here is (800) 989-8255. That's 1 (800)
989-TALK.
Pat, let's take a call. Let's go to Sidney in San Diego,
California. Sidney, you're on TALK OF THE
NATION.
SIDNEY (Caller): Hello. Thanks for taking my call.
Hello, Pat. Hello, Juan.
WILLIAMS: Hello.
Mr. BUCHANAN: Hi, Sidney.
SIDNEY: Recently, George Bush appeared on stage
with George Shultz and Colin Powell and Henry
Kissinger at an event which seemed designed to
send a message of the power behind the Bush
candidacy. It seems obvious this is a continuation of
the old guard George Bush who has been leading the
charge to create the New World Order. My question
involves Henry Kissinger, who is--Henry Kissinger
and associates are dramatically involved in shaping
the strategic alliance between China and the world.
What are your thoughts about Henry Kissinger's role
in China and what might that portend for America if
George Bush is elected president?
Mr. BUCHANAN: Well, I think the message Mr.
Bush sent for that press conference with Shultz
and--Mr. Shultz and Mr. Kissinger behind him and
Mr. Scowcroft and the others was basically that he
is his father's son. And it is a New World Order
party, the Republican Party today, and Mr. Bush was
saying, 'I will rely on these individuals who are
interventionists and globalists to help shape my
foreign policy and this is where I am headed.' And,
frankly, that's one of the reasons I'm running.
With regard to my old colleague Henry Kissinger,
I'm one of 10 surviving members of that official
delegation, that opened up the People's Republic of
China, and where I break with Mr. Kissinger is this:
When we went to China, we were trying to get our
men out of Vietnam, and the Chinese military was
positioned all along the Soviet border. There was a
Soviet-China split that came to the verge of war in
1969. Now all those Chinese forces have been
moved from the Russian border. They are opposite
Taiwan and the threats are coming against our
friends on Taiwan and against our country. And the
weapons are being bought to fight a war against a
naval power in the western Pacific, the United
States.
When I saw this redeployment, I said, 'It is time the
United States stopped building up this--what could be
this Frankenstein monster and took a hard look at
what they're doing.' They persecute Christians. They
persecute dissidents. They threaten our country.
What in heaven's name are we doing giving them a $
70 billion trade surplus every single year when
they're using it to buy weapons to threaten our men
and women?
And so I part company seriously with Mr. Bush on
that, who was in favor of PNTR, and Mr. Gore. And
this is why we need a Reform Party and a third
party. The American people at least ought to be able
to decide whether they want this China policy. A
majority of Americans opposed it, Juan. And, OK, I
realize the big money came in with both parties. Mr.
DeLay and Mr. Clinton all working together,
business roundtable, Chamber of Commerce,
Washington Post; all of them, the establishment
together, the establishment of both parties. We offer
America something different, and that's why we're in
this.
WILLIAMS: Let's go to Jane in Mt. Vernon,
Washington. Jane, you're on TALK OF THE
NATION.
JANE (Caller); Yes. Thank you. It's truly an honor
to speak with you Mr. Buchanan. And I wanted to
ask you something. What do you think is at stake for
our country if we shut out of the national debate a
priory additional voices such as yourself?
Mr. BUCHANAN: What the establishment in
Washington has in mind is basically elections that
make no difference. One group comes out of the
think tanks and foundations and universities and goes
into government, and the government group goes
back into the think tanks and universities and
foundations. The policy remains the same even
though the faces change. That is what presidential
elections are all about now, and the great fear of
these folks is that a different voice, which offers
America an entirely different foreign and trade
policy, will rally the American people and draw them
away from where the establishment wants them to
look.
Look, the establishment--I don't care whether it's
The Wall Street Journal or The Washington
Post--Juan's old paper--when it comes to those big
trade issues, those big deals, they are all in it
together. And we are offering America something
different.
WILLIAMS: Jane, could you support this new Pat
Buchanan, who is challenging the establishment?
JANE: Well, absolutely, because I think it's really an
insult to the American people to be told at the front
end that certain lines of debates are not going to be
heard by the people to make our own choices.
Mr. BUCHANAN: Jane, you are exactly right.
Juan, they take issues off the table. They say trade is
off the table; that's decided. Foreign policy is off the
table, whether it's NATO expansion or Kosovo. This
is--immigration is off the table. You can't talk about
that, although people in their living rooms talk about
it. All of these issues they say are off the table, but
we say we're gonna put them back on the table and
we're gonna let the American people decide whether
they do like the direction of this country.
WILLIAMS: Jane, who are you supporting?
JANE: Well, if Pat Buchanan is in there, I'm for
him.
WILLIAMS: Well, there's a vote for Pat.
Mr. BUCHANAN: Thank you, Jane.
WILLIAMS: Thanks very much for your call, Jane.
JANE: Thank you.
WILLIAMS: Let's go to Jeff in Chicago, Illinois.
Jeff, you're on TALK OF THE NATION.
JEFF (Caller): Hi, Juan. Thanks for having me on.
WILLIAMS: Oh, we're delighted to have you.
JEFF: First of all, I just heard Mr. Buchanan mention
before that he has not embraced the gay rights
agenda in its entirety.
Mr. BUCHANAN: Mm-hmm.
JEFF: And that's kind of like Hitler saying he hasn't
embraced the Jewish rights agenda in its entirety.
This is the man who said that AIDS is retribution
from God.
Mr. BUCHANAN: Mm-hmm.
JEFF: But it's also interesting that Pat has decided he
wants to focus on his foreign and trade issue, when
he knows that it's his domestic agenda that would be
found most horrific by the people.
Mr. BUCHANAN: Mm-hmm.
JEFF: I mean, this is the man who also called Martin
Luther King the most divisive man in America while
he was running the civil rights agenda. He ducked
the draft by claiming he has a bad knee, and goes
jogging regularly today. When he was younger, in his
own biography, he says that for fun, he and his
brothers used to beat up police.
I mean, I'm wondering how can he consider himself
a viable candidate when, I mean, really he's 3
percent...
Mr. BUCHANAN: All right. Well, look...
WILLIAMS: Hang on, there, Jeff. Let's give Pat a
chance.
JEFF: Sure. I'll hang on.
Mr. BUCHANAN: Yeah. Just hang on, Jeff. Now
first off, the idea that merely because I and a great
majority of Americans oppose the gay rights
agenda...
JEFF: No. But the majority of America...
Mr. BUCHANAN: Hold it now.
JEFF: ...does not think that AIDS was revenge from
God.
Mr. BUCHANAN: Well, hold it now.
WILLIAMS: Hang on, Jeff.
Mr. BUCHANAN: Jeff, you're gonna have to hold
on. You're getting out of control.
WILLIAMS: Jeff, just hang on. But let me just say,
Pat, before you go on...
Mr. BUCHANAN: All right. Sure.
WILLIAMS: ...I want to remind everyone that
they're listening to TALK OF THE NATION from
NPR News.
Mr. BUCHANAN: Yeah. All right. Let me say this,
to compare those of us who believe that the
homosexual agenda for America is wrong and
oppose that--to compare that with what Adolf Hitler
did to the Jews in World War II, which was
wholesale slaughter, is an absurdity. Secondly, I don't
apologize for my views with regards to gay rights. I
oppose the gay rights agenda in its entirety. I was
saying that tongue-in-cheek to Juan. Third, I did say
that AIDS is in effect what happens to people as a
consequence of unnatural and immoral sex. And, as
you know, homosexual conduct is the primary--or
was the primary way by which AIDS was spread. It
was a truthful statement.
And let me say this, friend. That was in a column in
1983, when I was the first American--600 people
had died of AIDS and 1,600 were infected. And I
said, 'What is the matter with our government that it
doesn't recognize this when it raises all this cane
about Legionnaires' disease, which killed a couple of
dozen people?' I said, 'This is a horrific thing. It could
kill thousands of people.' At the end of that column, I
had that one throwaway line, which I don't withdraw.
But at the same time, I was the first national
columnist to demand why the government wasn't
dealing with this national epidemic. I don't apologize
for that or my views, sir.
I mean, I would gather you are not like that nice lady
in Seattle. This fella's not gonna be with us, Juan.
WILLIAMS: Well, Jeff, what do you say?
JEFF: Well, again, it's interesting that he has decided
not to really focus on the other points, I mean, like
Martin Luther King is the most divisive man in
America.
Mr. BUCHANAN: Let me--I will fo...
JEFF: Hold on. I just want to guess. You said that at
the very beginning of the civil rights campaign,
before you really knew about King and, you know,
you were the first national columnist to speak out on
King, so really it was OK.
Mr. BUCHANAN: That's no...
JEFF: You make comments that people should be
condemned to death, and then you talk--dress it up
about how you were the first...
Mr. BUCHANAN: You are--I mean, look...
JEFF: ...to address it.
Mr. BUCHANAN: Now listen. If I wrote such silly
things as you suggest, I would not have gone from
having 30 newspapers to 200 and being one of the
most popular columnists in America.
JEFF: You're saying you did not write in a memo to
Nixon...
Mr. BUCHANAN: Yes. I mean, that memo...
JEFF: ...that Martin Luther King was the most
divisive man in America?
Mr. BUCHANAN: Look, in 19--you're right. I'm
sure you notice that NBC network, Tom Brokaw
apologized publicly for misquoting that memo. On
that memo, I--it was a memo in 1969 whether we
should recognize the day or go down and see Mrs.
King, and I suggested we not see Mrs. King. I said,
'Martin Luther King was one of the most divisive
men. Some see him as the messiah of the nation,
others think he's a dreadful person. He is a divisive
figure.' Look, I knew Martin Luther King. I am the
only candidate who was at the march on
Washington. I was in the Lincoln Memorial. I was in
Mississippi covering the civil rights demonstrations.
JEFF: And what were your views when you were
covering the demonstrations?
Mr. BUCHANAN: I was in Philadelphia,
Mississippi, before they got the bodies out of that
dam. There were things about the civil rights
movement I greatly admired. There were things that
went on--I knew them--I thought were appalling in
St. Louis. It had moments of greatness.
Like every great movement, the civil rights
movement had things that were attractive and things
that were not. And for my history friends, we make
no apologies.
WILLIAMS: All right. Jeff, thanks for your call.
JEFF: Thank you very much for your time, Juan.
WILLIAMS: Let me ask you, Pat, quickly, before
we take a break here...
Mr. BUCHANAN: Sure.
WILLIAMS: ...when it comes to support from the
minority community, do you expect to get any?
Mr. BUCHANAN: I think--look, yeah, I do believe
this: Of the folks we travel around the country--some
of the friendliest ones are African-American folks
and other minority folks because they do believe I'm
fighting to keep in the United States the kinds of jobs
that their kids are going to need and going to have if
they're going to make it into the middle class. These
manufacturing jobs in America, Juan, that I'm trying
to save aren't for Pat Buchanan. They're not for
people in graduate schools. They're the road to the
middle class for kids who quit school after high
school maybe because they got into a little bit of
trouble, or maybe because they want to, or they're
tired of school. Those are the things that used to
bring those folks into the middle class.
WILLIAMS: We're gonna take a short break right
now. You're listening to TALK OF THE NATION.
I'm Juan Williams. When we return, we'll continue
talking with Reform Party presidential candidate Pat
Buchanan. And we'll take more of your calls at (800)
989-8255. If you'd like to join the discussion online,
you can do so by going to our Web site at
www.npr.org. Click on the 'Your Turn,' then scroll
down to TALK OF THE NATION.
(Soundbite of music)
WILLIAMS: At 40 minutes past the hour, it's TALK
OF THE NATION from NPR News.
(Announcements)
(Soundbite of music)
WILLIAMS: Welcome back to TALK OF THE
NATION. I'm Juan Williams. Tune in at this time
tomorrow for a discussion with biographers who've
written on the public and private lives of George W.
Bush and Al Gore.
Today we're talking with Pat Buchanan about his
campaign for the Reform Party presidential
nomination. If you want to join the conversation, our
number here is (800) 989-8255. That's (800)
989-TALK.
Pat Buchanan, if you do get the nomination--which I
think is highly likely at this juncture--who would be
your running mate?
Mr. BUCHANAN: We've begun mulling that over
and talking about it and thinking about it, but we have
no choice as of yet, Juan. I've only got several
criteria, and one: the individual has to be pro-life.
Secondly, it should be an individual who can take
over the presidency of the United States at a
moment's notice. And third, someone who
fundamentally--they don't have to be identical to my
views, but someone who fundamentally believes in a
new America first, foreign policy and a trade policy
that looks out for working folks.
WILLIAMS: Well, who--give me some of the people
that you're looking at.
Mr. BUCHANAN: Nope.
WILLIAMS: You don't want to name any names.
Mr. BUCHANAN: No. You know, let me tell you, I
did that in 1992. Remember when I challenged
President Bush, they said, 'Who would you like as
vice president?' The press guys.
WILLIAMS: Right.
Mr. BUCHANAN: So I finally--one time a guy
pushed me; I said, 'Well, you know, I'd like this fella,
a former senator from Colorado, Bill Armstrong.' I
said, 'He'd be an outstanding guy. He resigned after
two years in the Senate.' I said, 'Just a terrific
fellow.' A day later, Armstrong was marched out in
front of the TV cameras to denounce me.
WILLIAMS: All right. Well...
Mr. BUCHANAN: I said, 'That's the last time that
happens.'
WILLIAMS: One of the criteria you mentioned was
that the person be pro-life.
Mr. BUCHANAN: Yeah.
WILLIAMS: Now...
Mr. BUCHANAN: I made a commitment to my
folks that he or she be pro-life.
WILLIAMS: Now George W. Bush has said that as
he looks at vice presidential possibilities that he's
considering someone who might be pro-choice. If he
did choose someone who was pro-choice, like
Governor Ridge of Pennsylvania, what impact would
that have on your candidacy?
Mr. BUCHANAN: Well, I would make an issue that
the Republican Party has clearly, as I feel it's going
to one of these days, abandon the pro-life cause.
That would be a declaration basically of neutrality as
to whether or not you have to be--should be pro-life
in the Republican Party. I mean, if your heir
apparent's a pro-choice individual, you're not a
pro-life party. And so I think that would be a fateful
step by Mr. Bush, and I think it would be a grave
mistake for him and his party. To be honest, I don't
think he's gonna do it.
WILLIAMS: All right. Let's go to John in
Laramie(ph), New York. John, you're on TALK OF
THE NATION.
JOHN (Caller): Well, how you doing, Juan?
WILLIAMS: Fine, thank you, John.
JOHN: Yeah. Well, I wanted to say you're doing a
great job, and I just wanted to say Ray who?
Anyhow, I have a short diatribe, and then a question.
Here's the diatribe.
WILLIAMS: OK.
JOHN: I don't agree with you, Mr. Buchanan, on
your pro-life stance, and I don't agree with you on
gays. I think that we need to just be embracing
everybody. We're all Americans, and we're all, you
know, equal. OK. That's my diatribe. I don't agree
with a lot of you.
However, I think what you're doing is great because
the two parties, they don't speak to me, they don't
speak to Americans like me. And my question is this:
I voted for John Anderson. I voted for Barry
Commoner. There's been third parties talked about,
organized, all of this for a long time and they never
win. They can't win. And I have to ask you: Is there
any way that you really think you can win? And are
you really, really telling us that you think you can
win? That's my question. Thank you.
Mr. BUCHANAN: Well, I do.
WILLIAMS: Thanks for your call, John.
Mr. BUCHANAN: Let me say that the answer is
yes, because I do think we're in a very volatile,
different period. And if you saw what Ventura did in
Minnesota, going from 10 percent to win, I think
there's a very volatile situation. I mean, am I the
favorite? Of course not. Is it likely? Probably not.
But is there a chance? Yes. But the Republican
Party in 1856 nominated Freemont, and it came close
to winning in its very first run, and it won four years
later with Lincoln.
On your point about all Americans are equal, there's
no doubt all of us have the same constitutional rights.
I agree. However, I think a real problem America
has is we've taken this idea of equality and extended
it so beyond where it belongs. All lifestyles, my
friend, are not equal. All ideas are not equal. Some
are wrong; some are right. And this is what America
needs more than anything else; it needs truth. Now
when it comes to myself and the leader of the gay
rights movement nationally, he and I have
identical--or she and I have identical constitutional
rights. But I do not believe their ideas are equal to
mine, or that lifestyle is equal to a traditional married
lifestyle. And we've gotta stand up for truth even
when it's unpopular and even when it's painful.
Otherwise, your society, I think, breaks down.
WILLIAMS: Well, here's another question on the
idea of whether or not you can win, from Tom in
Tallahassee, Florida. Tom, you're on TALK OF THE
NATION.
TOM (Caller): Hey, Pat. Boy, with--yesterday they
did Starr, and today they're doing you. NPR must up
before the Republican Congress wanting funding.
Hey, listen...
Mr. BUCHANAN: They're sending this tape over to
Senator Helms.
TOM: Oh, yeah. Well, I'm a big supporter because I
feel you're the only fella who's not a politician but a
statesman. But the reason I'm reluctant to vote for
you is because in the last two elections, the Reform
Party siphoned off votes and put the socialists in the
White House. And this is a very critical time coming
up in the next four years because the Supreme Court
justices are going to be picked, and I just don't know
that the chance of putting you in there is worth the
risk of Al Gore in there four more years. And the
other concern is that if you're in there--we all know
that both parties are resisting this third-party
movement--where are you gonna get your support in
the Congress? How are you gonna get your
legislation passed?
Mr. BUCHANAN: Well, the second question's far
easier to answer than the first. Let me give you an
example. I think the vast majority of the American
people want immigration reform. They want our
borders under control. They would like the atrocities
that are occurring--moral atrocities out in Douglas,
Arizona--stopped cold. I think the whole Congress
would support that.
WILLIAMS: Wait, wait. What was that?
Mr. BUCHANAN: Well, Douglas, Arizona, where
they've got thousands of people walking in every
night, cattle are being poisoned, people have
got--their homes are maximum security prisons. You
ought to go out there. Go out there and take a look.
This is where all the illegal immigration has poured in
now that the Buchanan fence has been built in San
Diego, Juan.
WILLIAMS: I see.
Mr. BUCHANAN: So--but that's Douglas, Arizona.
But let me take tax cuts. I mean, a president lead on
tax cuts, you will win easily. Suppose I got up and
said 'Look, we're gonna pull those troops out of
Kosovo.' My friend, do you think the Congress are
gonna say 'No, you're not. We're gonna keep them
there'? It would be easy getting my agenda through
because a majority of Americans agree with it, and
one party or the other is solidly behind every
component.
WILLIAMS: Wait a second, Pat. That
assumes--Tom, and tell me if I'm wrong in the way I
quote you here, Tom--but Tom wants to know if you
can win the White House in the first place.
Mr. BUCHANAN: All right. Now that is much
tougher. There's no doubt about it. Look, Tom, I'll tell
you this. I went through the same thought processes
you're going through before I decided to do this. And
if I didn't believe I had a chance to win, I would not
have started down this road. Now is there a
possibility it could turn out wrong for the things I
believe in? Sure, there is. There's never certainty in
this world. If it were a certainty it's all gonna turn out
for the best, then you would have done it--you know,
I would have done it...
WILLIAMS: Long time ago.
Mr. BUCHANAN: ...a year ago. Sure.
WILLIAMS: Well, Tom, so how do you come out?
Does that satisfy you?
TOM: Well, as I said, these aren't distant historical
elections in which the Reform Party has handed the
White House to the socialists.
Mr. BUCHANAN: All right. Tom, let me...
TOM: And this has been the last two elections.
And...
Mr. BUCHANAN: Let me talk to that. Dole would
not have won in 1996 with Perot out of the race.
Dole got--What?--about 41 percent?
WILLIAMS: Right.
Mr. BUCHANAN: Perot got 8 percent. Clinton got
49. All those votes for Perot would not have gone to
Bob Dole. Clinton would have won, I think, probably
53, 54 percent to 46. And...
WILLIAMS: Tom, you disagree?
TOM: Well, no. I think he's probably right, there.
WILLIAMS: OK.
Mr. BUCHANAN: All right. In '92, let me tell you,
the country didn't want Clinton. The country didn't
want Bush. And I don't think--I think that Clinton
would have beaten Bush in 1992. It's a much closer
call than it was in '96, but I think even in '92, the
country did not want to re-elect George Bush. He
ran...
WILLIAMS: Perot got 19 percent of the vote.
Mr. BUCHANAN: I know. But, I mean, was it my
fault or Perot's fault that George Bush ran third in his
home state of Maine, Juan? The country didn't want
him.
WILLIAMS: Tom?
TOM: Hm. Well, I gotta say Pat Buchanan is the
statesman of the batch. He's the fella who hasn't
sold--he's remained consistent in his views in the last
30 years I've been watching him. Even in "The
McLaughlin Group," he's the one guy that doesn't
flip-flop on the thing, so...
Mr. BUCHANAN: Do you think Juan flip-flopped all
over the lot?
WILLIAMS: Hey, hey, hey. Let's not get personal,
here.
TOM: You know, it's a very tempting offer because
you're definitely the best man for the job.
Mr. BUCHANAN: Well, I'll tell you what, Tom.
Why don't you do this: You wait until the--find out
where we are in the fall. OK?
TOM: Mm-hmm.
Mr. BUCHANAN: Before you make your call.
TOM: OK. Thank you.
Mr. BUCHANAN: Thank you.
WILLIAMS: Thanks, Tom.
TOM: Go, Pat, go!
WILLIAMS: All right.
Mr. BUCHANAN: Thank you.
WILLIAMS: Let's go to Richard in Philadelphia,
Pennsylvania. Richard, you're on TALK OF THE
NATION.
RICHARD (Caller): Yes. Nader is ahead in the
opinion polls to Pat, and the Green Party is on the
ballot in more states. Shouldn't Nader be on the
national debates before Buchanan? And also, in
Buchanan's book, he praised the way the British
were mistreating the Armenians, or the way the
Armenians were being not helped around the world
in what he called the Armenian holocaust; other
people agreed. Why did he prefer--if it's America
first, why did he prefer Britain to Armenia as far as
people being mistreated goes?
Mr. BUCHANAN: Well, first off, I did write about
the Armenian--the massacre of the Armenians on
three separate occasions.
RICHARD: Right.
Mr. BUCHANAN: I did not say that was a good
thing at all. What I said was that if you go back in all
these massacres and genocides of peoples, you will
find that despite the fact that statesmen say this is
awful and it can't happen again, it does every single
time and there has never been a real intervention to
stop it. I think what was done to the Armenians was
appalling, and it was done two or three times in the
1890s. But the British weren't involved with that.
RICHARD: But your book doesn't say it was
appalling.
Mr. BUCHANAN: The British weren't involved
with that. The British issue was involved with the
Bulgarian massacres by the Turks. And what I said
was it was a battle between Disraeli and Gladstone.
Disraeli said we ought to stay with the Turks even
though they did it, and Gladstone said we ought to
throw the Turks out of Europe even though they're
our allies. What I'm saying was this shows you when
national interest come into collision, even with
horrific human rights atrocities, every time virtually,
national interest wins. I don't say it's morally right. I
was writing history.
WILLIAMS: Richard, before you respond, let me
just tell everyone that you're listening to TALK OF
THE NATION from NPR News. Richard, did that
satisfy you?
RICHARD: Well, you know, I knew that, first of all,
you know, he's constantly through the book
talking--you know, whether he's praising or stating
history, he's just every little detail of mistreatment
and it doesn't--and no statements of--not that he has
to be remorseful, but it's just sort of with odd. But
also, again, I think Nader is--well, in my opinion, a
better person.
Mr. BUCHANAN: All right.
RICHARD: And also, he's higher in the opinion polls,
so shouldn't he be in debates before Buchanan?
WILLIAMS: Well, let's...
Mr. BUCHANAN: Well, let's talk to Nader.
WILLIAMS: Yeah. Let's talk to...
Mr. BUCHANAN: Let's talk to...
WILLIAMS: Thanks for your call, Richard.
Mr. BUCHANAN: I mean, Ralph is--you know, I
was opposed to a lot of what Ralph did years ago,
and Ralph and I have stood together against NAFTA
and GATT and the World Trade Organization and
this PNTR for China. I respect Ralph. I think--and I
like Ralph. I think he--what he does. His vision of
what is good for America he puts above money and
self-interests, and I admire people, even those I
disagree with, who do that.
I do think this: Let's wait and see where we are in
September. I believe we're gonna be on 50 ballots.
WILLIAMS: All right.
Mr. BUCHANAN: I don't know that the Green
Party is gonna be on the 50 ballots. But, you know,
don't go by the polls. Vote for the individual man or
woman you believe best articulates your vision of
what is right for America. If it's Ralph, go with him.
WILLIAMS: Let's go to Sarah in Boston. Sarah,
you're on TALK OF THE NATION.
SARAH (Caller): Hello, Juan. Thank you for taking
my call.
WILLIAMS: Sure.
SARAH: I would like to ask Mr. Buchanan about his
stance on immigration, which has usually been very
fierceful(ph) against certain people, like Third World
people. I know he supported Elian Gonzalez staying
in this country or getting the citizenship here, but he
has openly objected to Africans--you know, there
was--Africans coming here. There was a time that
you compared having an Irish person coming here as
opposed to getting Africans coming here. You have
never lived there. You don't really know how
Africans are brought up. You don't know our
disciplines. You don't know our abilities. You don't
know...
Mr. BUCHANAN: Well, I do know this...
SARAH: I just want you to know how you stand on
immigration for certain people. Why are you not
allowing or giving everybody the same favors to
enter this country as long as they are qualified to be
here?
WILLIAMS: Sarah, thanks for your call.
Mr. BUCHANAN: Well, I think your position is not
too far different from mine. All I'm saying is that our
levels of immigration now in the last 30 years have
been enormous. It's almost over a million legal
immigrants a year, and half a million illegals who
come here and stay. And you're rapidly changing the
nature of the entire country, where we're a nation--I
read today in The Washington Times--where we
speak 300 languages. Unless we do something and
make sure the things that unite us are elevated--like
language and history and all the rest of it--we're
gonna lose our country, my friend. But anybody from
any country and any continent can be a good
American. We know that from our history.
WILLIAMS: That's all the time we have for today.
I'd like to thank all of you who called this hour, and
especially my guest, Pat Buchanan, Reform Party
presidential candidate and author of "A Republic, Not
An Empire," and "The Great Betrayal." He joined me
here in Washington. Thank you very much, Pat.
Mr. BUCHANAN: Thank you very much, Juan.
Good seeing you again.
WILLIAMS: Earlier, we heard from Jerry Moan,
chair of the Reform Party. He spoke to us from his
office in Tucson, Arizona. In Washington, I'm Juan
Williams, NPR News.
